45 acp damage human body

, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . Maybe .22 LR? Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Black Talon ammunition was She said she shot him. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. round, you can see all three effects. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. damage Fire Rate: 240 and I guess $$.. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. The objective of this study was to construct a I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. Most self-defense shootings take place inside 20 feet and are over in seconds; if Im out in public and shooting beyond that distance, itll probably be tough to sell as self-defense to a judge and/or jury anyway. My $.02. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. So banter on gentlemen. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the Body When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. There ya go compromise just carry both. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. You are up close and personal with this guy. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. A 1911 in 9MM? Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. After reading your article, I had to 1.) Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. 9mm capacity! The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. It goes in a like a nail.. Taurus 45 John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. He died in our E.R. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. Wilderness Arena Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! It did when it came to FMJ bullets. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Also we are talking pistols. What a joke! I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. I can shoot consistently accurately. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. We carried 19 rounds of 9mm in combat. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. It stood there looking at me. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. and love a SA trigger. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. Its a freaking tarantula. Fired expert m14. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Let the Craftsman pick his tools! 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. Was the 357 mag. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. Im 73 yoa. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? Reality. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. I am a colt Gvt. I spend a great deal of time on the range. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. What type of bullet is being fired? Make your best shot number one. This doesnt factor shot placement. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. Hi, I have both. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. True. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? 9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. The Human Torso Test. for every day carry. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. That and other factors. Plus, this decision saves the military a substantial amount of money as Glocks are cheap, and the 9mm ammo is also very affordable and, perhaps more importantly, readily available. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. for all the same reasons. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Spread the word; knowledge is power! Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. Guns dont kill people. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. I am not old. I Have hair and an angular face. In the end of the nearly five-minute shootout, five FBI agents were wounded and twoJerry Dove and Benjamin Groganwere killed. It is also a logistics factor 45 is just one more different ammo to resupply. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. I imagine humans are the same. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. Millenials and their bias arguments. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. Penetrative powers of various types of ammunition - Ballistics Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. I prefer 45 revolvers. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. The ambulance took him away. JavaScript is disabled. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. Ive hunted with both 9 and 45. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. Be Safe Out There. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. I can buy that. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. The original FBI testing of bullets conducted in the late 1980s involved testing the Winchester 147 grain subsonic hollow point 9mm round, the Remington 185 grain hollow point .45 round and a 10mm 180 grain hollow point round. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. 45 stopping power! Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. Shot placement rules. handgun on the UN Side. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Symptoms Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. If you like and are comfortable with what you shot, then you will carry what you like. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. Glad you are doing well. Of course shot placement is important. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. Then, theres the venerable .357 magnum, which, though smaller than the .44, comes roaring out of a barrel at speeds as high as 1600 FPS. Come On People!! We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. What causes more damage, .45cal pistol or 5.56 mm rifle? Seems to me that American businesses take it in the chin enough already without this insult. In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Either will get the job done for protection. I carry a 10auto. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. To each his own. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). There are four major handgun founding factors. Glocks are cheap and reliable. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. High-velocity Psychological factors play a much greater role. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Black Talon and Todays Best Self-Defense Ammo Because capacity equals TIME. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far No regrets. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot.

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